tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post7651865065624841088..comments2023-12-01T16:56:04.415+11:00Comments on Peak Energy: Concentrating On The Important Things - Solar Thermal PowerBig Gavhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00682404837426502876noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-83320042825780456882012-11-10T10:18:51.027+11:002012-11-10T10:18:51.027+11:00Anon - if you are going to criticise the area requ...Anon - if you are going to criticise the area required calculation you should either point to a source explaining the error or explain it yourself. Given that you've done neither you seem to be just blowing smoke.<br /><br />All land based transport can be shifted to electric vehicles (road or rail) over time so that isn't an issue.<br /><br />PV has managed to get ahead of CSP on the cost curve and is much easier to deploy given the small size of most installations - over time CSP's ability to generate dispatchable, large scale energy will help it grow as a percentage of our energy generation - the 2 technologies are complementary.Big Gavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00682404837426502876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-75590837923863440352012-11-05T05:12:44.255+11:002012-11-05T05:12:44.255+11:00Thermal CSP looks like a good way to go but effici...Thermal CSP looks like a good way to go but efficiency of thermal collectors running a steam turbine engine is much worse than 20% efficient solar PV. I'm not familiar with heat storage technology, but I do know that electricity storage is a major problem to be overcome with solar PV and wind turbines. That issue alone makes CSP a better way than solar PV.<br /><br />There was a serious mistake in the article regarding a 250 x 250 km area in (a hot spot in Africa) to replace the world's fossil energy use. In fact the area needed is much larger as a calculation done on a single A4 paper is all that is needed to roughly figure the area.<br /><br />Unfortunately energy storage for use in heavy trucking, shipping and aviation remains another major problem in adoption of electricity as a power source. The second issue is power distribution across long distances requiring a complete revamping of electric grids.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-81447789270978219402010-03-21T17:31:38.038+11:002010-03-21T17:31:38.038+11:00Thanks for the great article!Thanks for the great article!solar lightshttp://www.solarsonicpower.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-51949567463028698292009-11-21T13:46:57.661+11:002009-11-21T13:46:57.661+11:00Let's correctly understand heat:
A body cann...Let's correctly understand heat:<br /><br /><br />A body cannot contain heat...ONLY thermal energy. Heat can ONLY be transferred. It is not from a math perspective, a "state variable," and this is exactly why a body cannot contain it....only transfer it to or from itself. A consequence of heat not being a state variable is that there no such thing as "heat flow." Heat transfers...it does not flow.Doug Starfieldhttp://push.pickensplan.com/profile/dougstarfieldnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-73964602162238357542009-09-21T04:45:04.153+10:002009-09-21T04:45:04.153+10:00I'm sick to death of the Euro-pansy outlook fo...I'm sick to death of the Euro-pansy outlook for CSP and the predictions for the North African deserts.<br /><br />CSP can be cheaper than PV but that leaves profits on the table.CTYankeenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-28623297734851247842009-07-09T04:57:17.499+10:002009-07-09T04:57:17.499+10:00Wrong. The biggest source of power is not solar. ...Wrong. The biggest source of power is not solar. The biggest source of power is solar X 2 billion years of carbon fixation. <br /><br />Sustainable resources just can't stand up to the incredible amounts of free oxygen and fixed carbon God has stored up for us in the earth and in the air! We could burn it for thousands of years (unless some unforeseen consequence emerged..hmm).<br /><br />I'm being sarcastic, but I almost convinced myself. Would someone state this non-sarcastically so that the immensity of will actually scare people (evangelicals) into thinking right?Bryan Seigneurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04338760361583837413noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-33359556704449196102009-03-25T18:45:00.000+11:002009-03-25T18:45:00.000+11:00Yes - storing energy in the form of heat is a majo...Yes - storing energy in the form of heat is a major advantage for CSP - but you still need to store the heat effectively - and most CSP plants currently have little to no storage.<BR/><BR/>Some places are trying molten salt and others (like Ausra) hot water based approaches - but you still need to create sufficient storage capacity to get you through extended generating periods without sunlight.Big Gavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00682404837426502876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-19691361006183147192009-03-25T14:36:00.000+11:002009-03-25T14:36:00.000+11:00I'm not sure if this posted the first time so I'm ...I'm not sure if this posted the first time so I'm giving it another shot.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Big Gav<BR/><BR/>I think you're right that with a smart grid and more sources of energy we can make do with a smaller percentage of base load in the grid.<BR/><BR/> and lets not forget better efficiency to reduce demand<BR/><BR/><BR/>I get what you are saying about storage turning any renewable into base load power. But isn't it an advantage of CSP that it stores the energy in the same form it gathers it,-heat? Also, the heat storage mass keeps the power output steady as it radiates heat to boil water. At least that's how I understand it. The heat storage is the source of power all the time, not just at night. In other words, it's always dispatchable power. The storage isn't coupled to the plant so much as designed into it.<BR/>Correct me if I'm wrong. <BR/><BR/><BR/>I wonder how feasable it will be to retrofit solar thermal plants that weren't designed for storage at a later date. Brightsource, for instance, recently signed a deal to build 1.3 GW in California that doesn't have heat storage. It's great to see, but I would have preferred that it have the storage. In the case of retrofitting, we may be talking about "coupling" the storage to the plant.<BR/><BR/><BR/> One of the things I like about <BR/>CSP is it's low tech simplicity, including the heat storage. <BR/><BR/>On air cooled CSP<BR/><BR/>http://www.nrel.gov/csp/troughnet/pdfs/2007/dersch_dry_cooling.pdf<BR/><BR/>Cooling technologies for CSP from the above NREL study<BR/>ƒ<BR/>* ƒ Once through cooling<BR/> Most efficient and cheapest technolgy but rarely applicable for CSP <BR/><BR/>*Wet cooling tower<BR/> Efficient at moderate investment costs but high water consumption .<BR/><BR/>*Indirect dry cooling<BR/> Less efficient and more expensive than wet cooling but almost no water consumption for cooling.<BR/><BR/>*Indirect dry cooling (Heller System)<BR/> Less efficient and more expensive than wet cooling but almost no water consumption for cooling. <BR/><BR/>*Hybrid cooling<BR/>Combination of wet and dry cooling technologies. Dry cooling with water usage during time periods with peak ambient<BR/>temperatures.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-38769902465129992302009-03-14T18:49:00.000+11:002009-03-14T18:49:00.000+11:00This is a great news. Thanks for this post.This is a great news. Thanks for this post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-53178876067239320452009-02-25T21:36:00.000+11:002009-02-25T21:36:00.000+11:00Well - solar thermal can generate baseload when co...Well - solar thermal can generate baseload when coupled with sufficient energy storage to get through periods of little or no sunlight.<BR/><BR/>You could say the same about any form of renewable energy - add enough storage and it is "baseload".<BR/><BR/>As you say, geothermal genuinely is baseload, without storage, but traditional geothermal power can't meet all our needs.<BR/><BR/>To a certain extent I think fixating on whether or not a particular plant is "baseload" is pointless - with diversity of source (solar, wind, wave, tidal, geothermal, hydro, biogas etc) and geographical diversity, plus smarter and more widely interconnected grids, it really doesn't matter if a plant is operating at full speed 25% of the time or 90% of the time (no plant generates 100% of the time).Big Gavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00682404837426502876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-12714949333561085912009-02-25T13:13:00.000+11:002009-02-25T13:13:00.000+11:00In my first comment there were a few inaccuracies....In my first comment there were a few inaccuracies. <BR/><BR/> I stated that storing heat is 20-100 times cheaper than storing electricity. I should have said it is 20-100 times as efficient. It is true that it is cheaper also.<BR/><BR/>And I said "solar thermal is the only renewable energy that can produce steady baseload power"<BR/><BR/>Geothermal can also provide base load power.<BR/>However, advanced geothermal is barely at the pilot plant stage. I don't think conventional geothermal can scale up to the size that solar thermal could.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-76825169251133890232009-02-25T08:19:00.000+11:002009-02-25T08:19:00.000+11:00The low prices for future CSP , PV and Wind will m...The low prices for future CSP , PV and Wind will make nuclear and Coal with CCS too expensive to compete.<BR/><BR/>By comparison, electricity for new nuclear plants is estimated at at least 12-17 cents/kWh, with one new estimate as high as 22-30 cents.<BR/><BR/>Coal with CCS will cost at least 16 cents/kWh.<BR/><BR/>So CSP can match these two right now, with prices falling in the near future.<BR/>We could build 50-100 GW of solar thermal in the U.S. before you see a single new nuclear plant go online. CSP and Wind can be built much faster than nuclear or coal with CCS.<BR/>And unlike these two, solar thermal has already had it's pilot plant stage, and is ready to build right now. <BR/><BR/>http://climateprogress.org/2008/11/21/solar-baseload-outshines-clean-coal-and-it-always-will/<BR/><BR/><BR/>It's worth looking at the proposal for Europe, North Africa and the Mid East called TREC.<BR/>It will provide electricity, hot water and seawater desalinization for all three of those areas<BR/>http://www.solarserver.de/solarmagazin/solar-report_0207_e.html<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>An interesting new company from Israel is Zenith Solar. They are developing a commercial version of a new kind of concentrating solar that is both PV and solar thermal. <BR/>http://www.zenithsolar.com/index.html<BR/><BR/>from their website<BR/>"In conventional CPV systems, the excess heat generated in the solar cell needs to be removed to avoid damaging the cell and to maintain high efficiency of electricity conversion. ZenithSolar utilizes the heat generated at the solar cell receiver to provide usable hot water heating, improving overall solar power conversion efficiency to 75% ."<BR/><BR/>"The Zenith Solar`s `Optics in Plastic` is the key to manufacturing efficiency and superior product quality achievement. A 2800 ton injection molding press uses advanced custom thermoplastic composition developed by our scientists for reliable, stable and long life operation. Our solar dish are injection molded with multiple gate radius heated runners to ensure even material flow and minimal warpage with rapid fill."<BR/><BR/><BR/>"An ordinary photovoltaic cell, which is 10 by 10 centimeters, normally produces one watt of electricity. We managed to extract more than a thousand times more - 1,500 watts. In this way, the cost of a cell is 1,500 less, becoming almost nothing." <BR/><BR/>"No one has ever produced so much electricity from a solar cell at this strength."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-23276589049393967732008-11-21T15:17:00.000+11:002008-11-21T15:17:00.000+11:00Regarding PV outpricing solar thermal. PV lacks t...Regarding PV outpricing solar thermal. PV lacks the heat storage advantage of solar thermal. That's an extremely important consideration. It's at least 20 times cheaper to store heat, than to store electricity.<BR/> As Joseph Romm points out in his excellent article on solar thermal at: <BR/>http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/04/14/solar_electric_thermal/index.html<BR/><BR/>solar thermal is the only renewable energy that can produce steady baseload power. If we are going to replace coal plants, we have to be able to do that. Solar thermal can also act as follow on or peaker plants. Their output curve fits the daily demand curve, continuing to generate through the night. The steady output from the heat mass is what enables this. <BR/> When they are water cooled, they can even desalinize water. This would work well in places like India for that reason. <BR/><BR/> They can also be air cooled, with some loss of efficiency.Richard Mercerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12562319064021702411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-92007958396456390292008-07-20T17:58:00.000+10:002008-07-20T17:58:00.000+10:00The Ausra approach uses Fresnel lenses, and they a...The Ausra approach uses Fresnel lenses, and they are one of the major players now.<BR/><BR/>I think the "Suncube" guys do too.<BR/><BR/>This idea seems to be getting plenty of press now:<BR/><BR/>http://www.plentymag.com/features/2008/07/concentrated_solar_power_repor.phpBig Gavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00682404837426502876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-18806387274507099132008-07-20T13:04:00.000+10:002008-07-20T13:04:00.000+10:00Does any one know why lenses especially fresnel le...Does any one know why lenses especially fresnel lenses are not used in a major way for concentrated solar thermal ?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14052293914798608816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-20685795503828589792008-04-04T21:33:00.000+11:002008-04-04T21:33:00.000+11:00I think one or two TOD commenters are just being (...I think one or two TOD commenters are just being (deliberately) obtuse.<BR/><BR/>Read the Ausra technology page - it just recycles water through the system - water use is minimal.<BR/><BR/>I like Stirling engines - but the need to store electricity instead of heat is an inherent disadvantage for them.Big Gavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00682404837426502876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-19876625585242897582008-04-04T21:24:00.000+11:002008-04-04T21:24:00.000+11:00Over at the TOD posting of this, a lot of people s...Over at the TOD posting of this, a lot of people seemed to jump on the one perceived flaw - need for water cooling.<BR/>Although less efficient, the Stirling designs don't necessarily need water cooling, and it might still be possible to implement a recirculated system; after all deserts are cool at night.<BR/>Also, there are the thermochemical systems, currently at a less developed stage where this may not be such a problem...<BR/>Compared to the technical difficulties of ITER ...<BR/><BR/>SPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-17424424232385613032008-04-03T23:21:00.000+11:002008-04-03T23:21:00.000+11:00Doh - I should have realised that between the curv...Doh - I should have realised that between the curvy dishes, the huge towers and the those stirling engine cupolas I'd be asking for trouble...Big Gavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00682404837426502876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-53806652461710030942008-04-03T23:14:00.000+11:002008-04-03T23:14:00.000+11:00A very arousing effort ;-)SPA very arousing effort ;-)<BR/><BR/>SPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-69756884030912315232008-04-03T19:59:00.000+11:002008-04-03T19:59:00.000+11:00Feel free to give this a vote at reddit too...http...Feel free to give this a vote at reddit too...<BR/><BR/>http://reddit.com/info/6edxp/comments/Big Gavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00682404837426502876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-21227570070532684252008-04-03T09:42:00.000+11:002008-04-03T09:42:00.000+11:00Hey thanks for the great blog, I love this stuff. ...Hey thanks for the great blog, I love this stuff. I don’t usually do much for Earth Day but with everyone going green these days, I thought I’d try to do my part. <BR/><BR/>I am trying to find easy, simple things I can do to help stop global warming (I don’t plan on buying a hybrid). Has anyone seen that www.EarthLab.com is promoting their Earth Day (month) challenge, with the goal to get 1 million people to take their carbon footprint test in April?... I took the test, it was easy and only took me about 2 minutes and I am planning on lowering my score with some of their tips. <BR/><BR/>I am looking for more easy fun stuff to do. If you know of any other sites worth my time let me know.adrian2514https://www.blogger.com/profile/07117329543115128931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-66233884686598897542008-04-03T08:06:00.000+11:002008-04-03T08:06:00.000+11:00I've got a post on one of Mr Fuller's ideas in the...I've got a post on one of Mr Fuller's ideas in the works as we speak :-)Big Gavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00682404837426502876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-67318785137713239752008-04-03T03:10:00.000+11:002008-04-03T03:10:00.000+11:00Thanks BG for a great article. Buckminster Fuller ...Thanks BG for a great article. Buckminster Fuller would love it!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9864176.post-27294554541815794422008-04-03T01:09:00.000+11:002008-04-03T01:09:00.000+11:00Cross-posted to TOD ANZ :http://www.theoildrum.com...Cross-posted to TOD ANZ :<BR/><BR/>http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3791Big Gavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00682404837426502876noreply@blogger.com